Episode 13: Interview with Matt Bailey

The next guest in our is Matt Bailey. Matt is the president of SiteLogic, an Online Marketing Consulting ageny situated in Canton, Ohio. Furthermore, Matt Bailey is also a member of the advisory board of SES New York and author of the book “Internet Marketing: An Hour a Day“.

Andre Alpar: Hi Matt, thanks for being here! Can you please introduce yourself really briefly?

Matt Bailey: Alright, I´m Matt Bailey, President of SiteLogic and also on the advisory board for SES.

Andre Alpar: Alright, so you have great thesis on the future of Social Media and you think that’s kind of the big thing that´s coming right now and that´s brand new and that´s going to change everything that
there is and how it is?

Matt Bailey: Well, you know the wonderful thing about it is that it´s not a brand new thesis. It relies more on understanding your company, understanding your message and where your strengths are.
I think a lot of companies they don´t look at their resources to find out where their strengths are. So, are your strengths in content development? Where are they? And then taking that, doing research to find out what your customers want – when do they want it? And then developing a plan on: this is how we´re going to interact based on our resources, and based on the effective media.

Andre Alpar: Ok. But you had this great slide where you were basically showing us all these, let’s say, old Social Media channels that died out and then you were…..Can you probably catch up on that a little bit?

Matt Bailey: Yeah. Well, the basis behind that is: the tools are going to change! You know, like I said I started talking at the SES conferences back in 2002. And back then we were talking about MySpace and Friendster and Bebo and, you know, all these things that no one even talks about anymore. And we look at, you know: There´s the rise of Pinterest now and that´s really what frustrates me is
the mentality that, just because it´s a new Social Media, you have to have to use it. My message is: use the right channel that´s most effective for communicating your message.

Andre Alpar: Alright, so if I´m doing something that´s very optical, that´s very (like) visually driven, then Pinterest would be the thing. And if I´m rather a storyteller, then something else would be the thing?

Matt Bailey: Yeah, I mean Pinterest is good (you know like I said) collectors, hobbyists, travel, (you know) those types of things with a real specific audience. But if you´re a storyteller I see where YouTube or even (you know) app development and attaching yourself to some other people that are promoting things, finding ways to give that story.

Andre Alpar: And is it probably (like) that people talk about (like) all these brand new trends because the just need a new story to tell to their clients, because (like) I think many people here and, in general they’re agencies, so they have to bring something new continuously. If you would have (like) one thing all the time for (like) the same amount of time that you´ve been speaking SES, for (like) ten years, then probably (you know) you would die out of consulting gigs.

Matt Bailey: Well, and you keep changing

Andre Alpar: So you´re taking that away from people? That´s kind of mean.

Matt Bailey: Absolutely, because the first and foremost priority of any business is to make money. And so…

Andre Alpar: So from a consultancy perspective it´s correct to always jump on…So Pinterest is the great new thing, right?

Matt Bailey: It is, you know, and you can get business doing that. But I find that, that´s what I call the shining object syndrome. It´s: ‘look what´s new, let´s do it!’ Rather than taking a step back and say: ‘Do we even need to do it?’
Know where you´re making your money and why. And what´s going to keep me going as a consultant – and I think a lot of people here – is the majority of businesses aren’t doing the fundamentals.
And the fundamentals is what I preach.

Andre Alpar: But is it sometimes… Is it probably the reason behind that is that the new shiny thing, as you said, is probably (you know) it´s exciting, it´s new, it´s interesting and the fundamentals, they´re (like you know like) doing (like) everyday work. It´s (like) very solid basic thing, it´s not exciting, it´s kind of boring (you know). It´s a lot of work, so it´s probably (you know) people would rather do something that´s a little bit entertaining and new and potentially huge rather than something that´s solid but it´s not so…

Matt Bailey: Well, getting a lot of friends feeds the ego. I mean, it really does! You know, for a business to all of a sudden get 6000 friends from a campaign, it feeds the ego. But does it feed the bottom-line?
And my response to that would be, I find analytics and making money to be really exciting! And when I find ways to make companies more money, that makes it sexy and it makes it sexier than getting friends and followers and tweets.

Andre Alpar: And do all the companies (you know) understand how…Do they join your point of view?

Matt Bailey: Eventually. Well, because when we start an engagement, I mean, the first thing we do is break down: Here are all the channels that you are marketing through and here is how much you are making in terms of revenue from each channel. And then we break it down to profit. And usually that’s a very surprising thing for companies.

Andre Alpar: Do you also help them (like) find out their cost of every different channel? (like) For example it´s kind of hard to figure out (you know) what they´re spending on which Social Media channel?

Matt Bailey: Really, that´s more in terms of employee hours

Andre Alpar: Ok

Matt Bailey: (You know) Do you have two people on this? One person? half a day? that type of thing.
And that´s why I said, usually what’s surprising is: We find that their email program is their highest profit per Dollar.

Andre Alpar: But, it´s hard to compare email with (like) regular online marketing channels because email is the customers that have I already been gotten at some point of time. So I’m marketing to existing customers but usually most of the money is spent getting new customers, right? So it´s like a little bit apples and pears, right?

Matt Bailey: It is. But when you´re trying to evaluate things in terms of profit you want to take the profitable activities and you want to leverage those to make some more money.

Andre Alpar: Obviously.

Matt Bailey: And the reason why email is highest profit per Dollar is: people are usually spending nothing
on email. But it´s very effective. So, my question is: If it´s already high profit per Dollar activity, why not invest in it?
(

Andre Alpar: Sure)

Matt Bailey: And see how much more profit you can get, rather than focusing on things that are not high profit or losing money propositions and trying to fix them. All you are doing is chasing something that´s broken, rather than focus on where you´re making your money and leveraging it to greater profitability. And that approach…
Because, “let´s make more money and then we´ll figure out what´s wrong.” – That´s my approach to the marketing.

Andre Alpar: And then you can spend some money on things that are new and shiny and interesting and then it´s ok.

Matt Bailey: But get the money first!

Andre Alpar: Sure, sure, sure. So, how big is Sitelogic? If I may jump to your (like) more descriptive things.

Matt Bailey: Sitelogic, we are a group of twelve people

Andre Alpar: It´s more like strategic online marketing consulting?

Matt Bailey: It is, yes!
We have specialists in different areas. Specialists in analytics, specialists in content development, specialists in email and we start an engagement by auditing a company’s online digital marketing
and then developing a plan for them to follow for the next year.

Andre Alpar: So, how did you get everyone to buy-in? Is it just like the trusted you´ve built because you´ve been there since ever? Or is it because your speeches are entertaining? So this gives you enough buy-in?
Because basically you´ll say ‘ok,’ and usually it´s like (you know) set up costs in the beginning, they´re all sunk in the end. If you suggested something wrong and then it´s really, really critical.

Matt Bailey: That´s why I like the fundamentals. Fundamentals always work!

Andre Alpar: Because that´s (like) a hundred percent safe shot and then?

Matt Bailey: Yeah, absolutely! (Yeah you know) Getting your analytics set up correctly.

Andre Alpar: That´s very basic.

Matt Bailey: That´s where we start with most companies. Is the analytic term set correctly? So we want to make sure it is correct and then, then we want to develop reports that focus on the goal which is: making money! The majority of people and their analytics, they look at unique visitors, time-on-site, nothing that says: we´re making more money. And that´s where we get the buy-in in this, because really what we´re doing is, we´re teaching. We´re teaching people how to use digital media effectively and determine an ROI.

Andre Alpar: It´s kind of really special, because you want them to teach them (you know) to make more money but then: First you have to do the audit, then you do even another step back (you know), setting up analytics, then probably something else is wrong, then you set up that and then they can start and probably (you know) reach a goal. Aren´t they (like you know) pulling your jacket and saying (you know): “When is it finally going to pay off more than you guys cost?” And how do you deal with that? Or does that never happen and that’s just my pessimist kind of view?

Matt Bailey: You know, once in a while it does. We set that out at the beginning of the program and also that´s why the audit is so critical. It lets us know if we´ve got to break some bones. Because when people are locked into ways of thinking that aren´t effective – And that´s what the audit shows is what you´re doing is not effective. That is, why you brought us in. This is what the data shows. It´s just not effective. Here´s what it is. And usually we can let them know ahead of time: Here´s what is going to happen. It´s going to hurt! We´ve got to change some things.
And we do our best to let people know: Here´s the investment that you can expect. You know what´s going to happen. We try and cushion that for people, obviously.

Andre Alpar: Does it happen sometimes that they say after your audit: “Ok, no no no! What you suggested is so…way too much change. We don´t want it!” Does it happen in a certain percentage of cases? Or are you always so good at storytelling that it never happens, because (like) the salesmanship of doing the whole thing is so amazing?

Matt Bailey: I wish! That would be wonderful!

Andre Alpar: I´m just guessing. If you say so, I believe you.

Matt Bailey: We do have a few that (you know) they implement a few things, works fairly well.
But you know when it´s not enough. Fine, if you don´t want to make that big investment and that´s…
I have no problem with that.

Andre Alpar: So, they make the small investment, they see the success and then they´re not going to make the big investment.

Matt Bailey: Hmmm (nodding)

Andre Alpar: Because that´s – I would think (you know) – If you tell them (ok) there´s only this one thing and
it’s a big investment and you can do something small to test me, Matt!, And psychologic…

Matt Bailey: I call that the shiny object syndrome.

Andre Alpar: Ok, again. Another one or is it the same one?

Matt Bailey: No, it´s the same one.

Andre Alpar: But from a different perspective?!

Matt Bailey: Yeah, people get… They think that there is an answer out there. That all they do is to throw money on it, like a software or a Social Media or something, and it will solve their problems.

Andre Alpar: Like ideally something you can outsource a hundred percent, right?

Matt Bailey: Right. Or not even that, just (you know)..
Typically businesses, (you know) when they don´t want to spend the money to do something they know is right, they’ll find a reason not to. “And that is why I want to do this software ´cause that will help us.” Or “I´m going to buy a new cart, a new e-commerce cart. I´m going to redesign.”
It is always something: “I´m going to do this” – but it´s all dancing around the fundamental problem.
I expose the fundamental problem and sometimes that´s not popular.

Andre Alpar: So, in your…I´m just jumping, sorry if I’m jumping the questions kind of here and there.
So, you´re (like kind of) on an meta-level like, you are helping people to plan, then you also help the clients to pick agencies to do the certain parts that you´ve suggested? Or do you basically give clients (like) “this is the perfect plan” and then try to figure it out? How does that work?
Because with twelve people you can´t be doing everything on an operative level, right?

Matt Bailey: No, we guide. There are some clients that we do some of their, (you know) we not only do the strategy, we do some execution. And that´s mainly because we have the resources to fill in where they don´t. And so we have a few at that level, the rest are more on…

Andre Alpar: But there´s just (like) a dozen of you so there´s (like) not so much resources to fill in everything,
or are you people just so fast?

Matt Bailey: No, they´re wonderful. I would say where we do most effective work is in building those reporting strategies – using analytics correctly, developing the strategies, and then training those in-house people how to be more effective at their job.

Andre Alpar: So, do you think that most of the companies that you do the consulting gigs for, do they already know what the right KPIs for them are, but they don´t know to get them, or do you mostly need to help them to figure out what really the right KPIs are for them?

Matt Bailey: It´s kind of a combination the two. I find some businesses are very aware of what they need to do,
others have no idea. They know when they are making more sales, they just don´t know why. So I…

Andre Alpar: …Fill in the blanks?

Matt Bailey: We bring the “why”. I mean, and when you know why, then you can take actions to improve, change, do whatever you need to do.

Andre Alpar: Great! Thanks so much for your time.

Matt Bailey: Thank you.